Lazario
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Post by Lazario on Feb 7, 2008 13:52:43 GMT -5
Are you suggesting that by "flaming," you think I'm being to some extent dishonest about how I feel on this matter?
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Post by GL on Feb 8, 2008 11:30:39 GMT -5
I'm not speaking for GP on this matter, but it sounds like some of it could be the tone with which you're going about it. You think it's disturbing and completely indefensible? Conduct yourself with civility towards those who don't agree with you.
Let me put it another way: there's 6 billion people on the planet, you're one of them. Look how many different people are out there that aren't you. There's bound to be one amongst that total that won't agree with you, and you have to respect the fact that we're here on a message board to post our opinions of what the topic at hand is. You feel a certain way, fine, engage yourself in civil conduct and we can have a fun time. But if you're so high and mighty that you can't accept the fact that 1 out of 5,999,999,999 won't agree with what you say, then what was the point of coming on in the first place?
Please, though, don't take this as an invitation to leave this place, as I enjoy you're presence here, and have come to expect high quality discussions with you throughout the time you've been here. But do what the rest of us have learned to do and respectfully discuss you're differences with the others on here.
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Lazario
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Post by Lazario on Feb 8, 2008 12:21:00 GMT -5
Well there are a lot of tricks to a discussion like this. One of them is - this movie being the kind of movie it is with the content it has, pretty much eliminates the possibility for discussion. There's nothing to discuss. It's about a killer who cuts up women, mostly slicing their private parts, and in between that are scenes of women being sexually violated in restaurants/public places. That's the film, that's all there is to it. The killer's revelations do not excuse anyone in this film from either promoting the victim role in real life violence or glorifying the actions of a sick, hateful murderer.
The only part we can argue about is- what it says about the viewer. I can't say for certain that viewers of this shit can just walk off scott free and that there's nothing wrong with them. I can't say that. Whether I wanted to or not. And I find there to be a problem with that. I think there is an excuse for what at least represents a majority of the "disturbing images" in horror films. But there is none for this film and I can't think of any for those people who defend it.
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HNT
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Post by HNT on Feb 8, 2008 13:17:36 GMT -5
You mean there is something wrong with slicing a woman's private parts, LAz? Shit, now I need a new plan for the weekend. MAybe I'll just take my girlfriend out for dinner and a movie
Seriously, I agree with you that this fil is mysogynistic, but that charge has been leveled at virtually every horror film in the genre (save a few Very notable exceptions like Slumber PArty MAssacre and whatnot). Certainly, you can read countless mainstream reviews calling the Friday the 13th series mysogynist trash, but you seem to like it fine. That doesn't make you mentally unbalanced, does it?
In short, I agree with your criticisms of this dreadful film, and would suggest that they tend to be valid criticisms of Fulci's work in general, but don't confuse those facts with an overall indictment of viewers of the film. That is an assumption that can't really be easily drawn.
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Lazario
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Post by Lazario on Feb 8, 2008 13:28:32 GMT -5
Seriously, I agree with you that this fil is mysogynistic, but that charge has been leveled at virtually every horror film in the genre (save a few Very notable exceptions like Slumber PArty MAssacre and whatnot). Certainly, you can read countless mainstream reviews calling the Friday the 13th series mysogynist trash, but you seem to like it fine. That doesn't make you mentally unbalanced, does it? Well, there's a huge difference between those movies and this movie. In many of those movies, the victim ratio between male and female is closer to being the same, and there isn't a conscious decision to make negative statements about the victims. On the whole. And that's generally because they're rip offs of movies that came before them. There's nothing we can/would hold the Friday the 13th films accountable for that hasn't been said or wouldn't hold against Halloween or Black Christmas before it. And that's not even mentioning the manner in which the victims are killed. Because in the Friday the 13th series, the men often get the much more vicious deaths (Paul in The Final Chapter, Andy in Part 3 - for example).
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HNT
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Post by HNT on Feb 8, 2008 13:43:42 GMT -5
I believe that the issue is that in most horror film, including the Fridays, men tend to be dispatched with rather quickly while the women are stalked and hnted screaming the whole time. It is not just about death, their fear is celebrated. not to mention, what would you guess the female to male nudity ratio is in the F13 series? My point is not that this film isn't far more distasteful. Of course it is. And Fulci is an incompetent hack in general for my money. However, that does not change the fact that there are plenty of reasons that different people might have for likeing his films, and plenty of reasons that those so inclined could question the negative impact of films like F13 on the viewer. Jsut keep in mind that to a large segment of the world's population, your taste is troubling too. As a community, horror fans should be together on issues like this and not divided
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Lazario
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Post by Lazario on Feb 8, 2008 16:52:00 GMT -5
Fulci is an incompetent hack in general for my money. However, that does not change the fact that there are plenty of reasons that different people might have for liking his films It's his resume. Most of his movies are pure garbage. I don't even know why he made so many films. His body of work is huge. And maybe only 5 or 6 of those films had any kind of substancial budget. And he made 3 movies every year... Lot of garbage in the old Italian horror / exploitation film market place. Just keep in mind that to a large segment of the world's population, your taste is troubling too. But there are significant artistic excuses and explanations for my tastes. And most horror fans' tastes, too. And I also think we are some of the most intelligent, socially progressive, supportive movie fans out there.
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HNT
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Post by HNT on Feb 8, 2008 19:07:08 GMT -5
There are significant artistic explanations for your taste in loving Friday the 13th films? PLease get serious would you? I like them too, but they are guilty pleasures in the extreme. Although I will reiterate taht I don't like NY Ripper, I will play Devil's Advocate and point out that the scene where the female heroine is listening to the news on the radio and suddenly realizes that she is laying next to the murderer is beautifully suspenseful and artistically miles ahead of anything in any Friday film. Same is true of the empty subway station scene in MAniac (another film that you have criticized extensively). In any event, I think that I have shown that while mysogyny clearly ruins a viewing experience for you and me both, it is perfectly possible for one less sensitive to the issue to find elements of a film that are decent
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Lazario
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Post by Lazario on Feb 8, 2008 19:53:30 GMT -5
There are significant artistic explanations for your taste in loving Friday the 13th films? Please get serious would you? A) I am serious. B) I wasn't just talking about the Friday the 13th films. I was talking about horror the genre in general. C) Give me time and I'm sure I can come up with significant artistic explanations for the series. the scene where the female heroine is listening to the news on the radio and suddenly realizes that she is laying next to the murderer is beautifully suspenseful and artistically miles ahead of anything in any Friday film. Suspenseful, maybe. But not redeeming of the movie in any way, shape, or form.
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Post by GL on Feb 9, 2008 12:02:14 GMT -5
It's a violent, gory, sleazy film, that's all there is to that. Some people have tastes that require nothing more from films other than that. Most of the Italian horror/exploitation films are that way, and frankly, that's why I enjoy them. That keeps me entertained, and that's all I require from a film, keep me entertained. Does it go overboard with the structure at times? Yeah, but I find that to be part of the fun with it.
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Post by GP on Feb 9, 2008 12:14:33 GMT -5
After all the furore about this movie (which I hadn't seen for a long time) I've just got through with a little social experiment. I watched it again along with the Mrs and my my sister (both of whom are well balanced, intelligent horror fans). Neither share my personal taste for Italian sleaze and gore effects but I got my way with choice of films by making the tea, fetching biscuits, and cooking a top meal (jambalaya). Their general consensus was that it was a nasty, graphic thriller but neither felt it was out of order or any more mysoginistic than the average teen slasher flick populated by, and I quote, 'vacuous bimbos who all deserve to die for being useless twats!' It just happened to be much more graphicly violent and a little mean spirited (mostly due to the sick girl plot thread). Sadly they both also thought it was a bit crap. I really enjoyed it again though and think it's one of Fulci's more effective thrillers.
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Lazario
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Post by Lazario on Feb 11, 2008 7:51:49 GMT -5
For once, and for all...
A piece of garbage like this cannot be compared to the Friday the 13th series. Those films, though some contain a few deaths which are questionable, are almost always fun and entertaining. They were never, on the whole, designed to cater to negative stereotypes about women. Which is why women made these films just as popular as men did in the 1980's when they all hit theaters and why today, there are a lot of female fans of the series. And yet again, the death scenes in the Friday films were never as sickly brutal against women (without doing the same to men) or blatantly misogynistic as those featured in New York Ripper. And, the sexuality of the women in the Friday series was not portrayed the same way as Fulci did in NYR.
New Line films, again, notwithstanding.
So, no more talk comparing these films. You'll never come up with a case good enough anyway.
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Post by GP on Feb 11, 2008 9:33:13 GMT -5
For once, and for all... A piece of garbage like this...etc So, no more talk comparing these films. You'll never come up with a case good enough anyway. Jesus Christ Monkey Balls. People disagree, get over yourself! What on Earth makes you so arrogant as to think you can dictate to us what we may and may not discuss/debate/argue on this board?
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Lazario
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Post by Lazario on Feb 11, 2008 9:44:20 GMT -5
I assume when you make comparisons to the Friday the 13th series, you are both addressing me, and accusing me of hypocrasy for my being a big fan of the series, and being very active as a poster in those threads.
But you've failed so far to make a solid comparison between those fun, harmless movies and this pile of total grass-grow-enhancer. I'm simply trying to save us both time. It's both precious and fleeting.
Besides, you made your best point already: You like the movie. You clearly don't think I can take that away from you.
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Post by GP on Feb 11, 2008 10:15:23 GMT -5
As it happens I've never mentioned Friday 13th in this thread and my previous post had nothing whatsoever to do with your opinion of New York Ripper or Friday 13th. I do like the movie and I know you can't alter that, neither can I alter your opinion or even wish to. What I can do is share my opinions with everyone who wants to read this thread. After all that is what this board exists for and not for you, I or anyone else to place a fullstop or impose limitations on any reasonable form of debate taking place within it. That is what I was addressing in my previous post.
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