Black Metal: A Documentary

[abraxas]

This is an awesome documentary on Black Metal, particularly the stuff with Cronos from Venom and Mortiis, as someone who was there in the very beginnings of Black Metal in the Norwegian phase of the genre, and who had gotten out early, enabling him to have some very good insights into the whole phenomenon. Kind Diamond also adds some of intelligence to the whole thing.

[HNT]

What a spectacular conflagration of complete and utter talentless morons (with the notable exception of Cronos and the Celtic Frost guys).

I think my favorite is the douchebag who is actually pathetic enough to suggest that writing a satanic song is morally and socially no different than writing a song that denies the holocaust and that both should be acceptable. Sorry, but the fact that this subhuman waste with his white trash mullet doesn't understand the difference and yet appears to warrant an interview says all that need be said about the emptiness and lack of value in the entire genre.

Not to mention, corpsepaint and satanism are really cute ways to piss of your mommy and daddy when you are 13, but if you don't outgrow them by your 20's (let alone the age of some of these clowns) then you really are a pathetic embarassment.

It is a good documentary in that it inadvertently gives a bunch of idiots just enough rope to hang themselves. Problem is, I think the makers of this thing actually take these bums seriously as musicians

[abraxas]

I don't know about them being completely talentless, It doe take talent to play any instrument, and to know how to write songs. I agree with what you said about that guy Grom though, I me there is plenty of evidence that the Holocaust did take place. Although they should have the right to write what they believe, besides I wouldn't want to get rid of the Satanist, their far too entertaining, almost as nonsensical as Christan's.

Surly you don't think Kind Diamond is a moron, and I really enjoyed Mortiis' insider/outsider view of the who phenomenon of Black Metal, but yeah Cronos, Celtic Frost, King Diamond, Mortiis were definitely the best parts of the documentary.

[GL]

Don't really have the time to look at it now, but if it actually goes into the style of creating the music rather than yet another look at what happened in Bergen, I'll give it a look sometime. Sounds like some great talking heads in there, so I will see it regardless.

[HNT]

It absolutely takes talent to play an instrument well. ALmost anyone can play poorly. As for writing songs, I tend to agree with you, but by doing away with most traditional concepts of harmonics and backing almost completely away from the verse-chorus-verse blues format these bands have made it possible to ignore even that. We are not talking about Dillinger Escape plan or Nile here. These guys ahve virtually no technical ability worth mentioning for the most part.

I certainly don't support censorship and agree that these clowns have every right to say anything that they want, but that does not mean that they shouldn't be mocked and criticized when they do. Satanism is funny and entertaining. Neo-nazis are not entertaining or funny. Regardless, I don't know how anyone can take corpsepaint and that stuff at all seriously. It is childish. I also can laugh at it, but I don't take the bands that wear it any more seriously than GWAR. The problem is that they take themselves completely seriously and they are a joke.

As for King Diamond, I am not personally a big fan, but I did used to like Mercyful FAte alright and I don't think he is a moron at all. I think it is a shame that he is associated with such trash.

[abraxas]

I don't know if the traditional way of writing songs is a good way to indicate if someone doesn't have any talent as songs writer. Even bands who have a tremendous amount of talent don't care for writing songs in a conventional format such as verse-chorus-verse, bands like the one you mentioned or bands like Opeth, My Dying Bride are very talented and innovative, but they don't write in the traditional manner.

[GL]

Dec 23, 2009 11:36:50 GMT -5 HNT said:

It absolutely takes talent to play an instrument well. ALmost anyone can play poorly. As for writing songs, I tend to agree with you, but by doing away with most traditional concepts of harmonics and backing almost completely away from the verse-chorus-verse blues format these bands have made it possible to ignore even that. We are not talking about Dillinger Escape plan or Nile here. These guys ahve virtually no technical ability worth mentioning for the most part.

I certainly don't support censorship and agree that these clowns have every right to say anything that they want, but that does not mean that they shouldn't be mocked and criticized when they do. Satanism is funny and entertaining. Neo-nazis are not entertaining or funny. Regardless, I don't know how anyone can take corpsepaint and that stuff at all seriously. It is childish. I also can laugh at it, but I don't take the bands that wear it any more seriously than GWAR. The problem is that they take themselves completely seriously and they are a joke.

I respectfully disagree with just about everything you said here. Simply speaking, just because a band doesn't write in a normal pop-oriented manner doesn't mean they have no talent. They're not trying to appeal to the masses, getting two million records sold because that's what the label wants. That's the wrong way of going about the genre. The fact that they're not the conventional way of writing is a big appealing point, and they should be commended for going outside the norm. That is one of the genre's strongest points, that they're not at all conventional and safe, and are really highly undervalued because of their technical ability. Again, a lot of bands out there not from the original Norway scene do have people with a lot of talent (Melechesh, Sigh and Orphaned Land being prime examples here of actually having talented musicians in their ranks) yet none of them are from Norway, and Sigh was around at the time but never approached the kind of pace for new albums they did.

And frankly, that second part is one of the very few pet peeves I have about detractors for the genre, the corpsepaint issue. It's a visual aspect of the band, it has nothing to do with their music. When you're listening to a CD, you're not looking at how they dress or look, so why is that an issue with the music? And just remember, KISS and Alice Cooper did that when these guys were in diapers, so it's not something that started with these guys.

[abraxas]

Well personally I think anyone that can play or writ is very talented, I cant play shit, so I don't base my opinions on that factor, its just what they do with their talent/music/songs. Its one thing to be a part of a particular genre, but it gets a bit boring when all bands do is make the same album over and over again, and where every song sounds exactly like every other song on the album. Theres nothing wrong with that on a limited scale, but not every song and every album, of every band. Ive seen my share of Black Metal bands live and all their songs sound the same.

I have nothing against bands using makeup, Alice Cooper and Kiss are my favorite bands.

[HNT]

All of the songs sounding the same is precisely the relevant issue. Too many of these bands really only know how to play power chords and fake their way through "songs" by relying heavily on distortion pedals and overdubbing synthesized shit. For what its worth, I can play and write songs. That doesn't ina nd of itself make me a better judge of these things than anyone else, but I can tell you that as a reasonably accomplished guitar player and a very bad bass player I am capable of playing most of what these bands do.

YOur comparison to Kiss and Alice Cooper is 100% valid. So is the comparison to GWAR. The difference, of course, is that none of those just mentioned take themselves so pathetically seriously as the black metal douches do.

Cooper and Kiss are all theatrics and their music is straight ahead high energy entertaining and silly rock. GWAR admits its a joke. These black metal schmucks are really competing with one another to see who can be the most evil and the most satanic. THe whole thing is silly, and they don't seem to be in on the joke. That is why what they do is different from what Cooper and Kiss do

[GL]

Well, the point I was making with the comparison, though, was that even though they do dress up in make-up or costumes, I don't use those are reasons why I don't like any of them. For the record, I don't think any of them are any good, but that's all based on their music. GWAR is such a joke I fail to see why people still listen to them, it's insulting to think people actually buy their records. KISS and Alice have some credibility as musicians with me, but I just don't like the music they make, and none of that has anything to do with what they do or don't dress up in. I've longed judged a band based on what sound I heard coming off their CDs, not their image or clothing options or anything, just the music, so I find it a little off to hear people using that complaint of yours, that because they look silly they don't bother listening to them. I've just never been able to understand how they works, I guess.

[HNT]

It is both. They look completely silly, they take themselves very seriously and they stand for nothing, and they make pretty simplistic and uninspired music.

To me, the image matters a lot because it makes them appear so phony. It is not unlike watching an interview with Mylie Cyrus or the Jonas Brothers where they talk in depth about what process they go through when "writing" their songs. I don't take their music seriously, and I find their image to be nauseating and contrived. The black metal poseurs are no more authentic or worthwhile. They just exploit a different market.