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Post by abraxas on Aug 4, 2010 6:48:56 GMT -5
Its easy to see why Son of Frankenstein is a favorite of directors like Tim Burton, the design of the film is absolutely beautiful, its simply a better made film, I know you personally don't care about such things but.......
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HNT
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Post by HNT on Aug 4, 2010 9:05:07 GMT -5
Whoa, Nelly! Slow your roll a bit here Abraxas, Perhaps GL does not care which is the better made film, but I certainly do. In that regard, I happen to know that Bride of Frankenstein is nearly universally acclaimed and is considered by many to be the finest horror film ever made. It is certainly considered to be James Whale's masterpiece. As far as these things go, I can't even begin to imagine why I would be impressed by which one of these films may have influenced Tim Burton more when Whale himself is a more celebrated and acclaimed director than Burton has ever been
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Post by GL on Aug 4, 2010 10:40:41 GMT -5
Its easy to see why Son of Frankenstein is a favorite of directors like Tim Burton, the design of the film is absolutely beautiful, its simply a better made film, I know you personally don't care about such things but....... Indeed, I may care about a fact like that, but seeing as how the only thing Burton's done which impressed me was Sleepy Hollow, the mere fact that a film happens to be a favorite of a director who's work I like is about as useless a claim as I can think of. It's a trivial fact, nothing more, and it certainly doesn't make me like the film more or less, just something interesting to know. And like HNT certainly mentioned earlier, you'll find nearly everyone who's either studied or written extensively about the genre will claim Bride not only the better film, but among the top 10 that has ever been produced in the genre as a whole.
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Post by abraxas on Aug 4, 2010 14:40:40 GMT -5
I must say in my defense that I did not say that because Tim Burton counts "Son" as an influence that it should be held in higher regard, I just stated a simple fact.
Nor did I say that you HN don't care about such aspects, my comment was directed to GL, where we have ample evidence that he normally does not think that they way a film is made makes it a good movie. Surely there have been movies that were made badly that were original and for that reason they are good. But generally the way a movie is made does impact on its success with fans and how well it does, film is an artists medium after all, unless your talking about movies that are so bad that they are good, thats a totally different story.
I do not challenge Brides status, but to me there are things in it that are pretty ridiculous and weak, just check out the scene were the annoying old women sees the monster and then does a move that one might find in an Abbott and Costello movie or bugs bunny cartoon.
Bride is shot in a traditional Frankenstein movie way, Son resembles Germen expressionistic films such as Nosferatu or Metropolis, which is to say that artistically its a more interesting looking film.
Son is also more serious drama, whereas there are things in Bride which almost get in the way of the story due to them being so ludicrous.
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HNT
Grizzled HMaM Vet
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Kiss my tuchis
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Post by HNT on Aug 5, 2010 10:29:32 GMT -5
But you do challenge Bride's status. And that is fine. What you are doing, however, is rejecting the mainstream popular view that Bride is the far better film in favor of your own opinion that a film generally considered inferior is enjoyable to you. Nothing wrong at all with doing that. In fact, GL does it all the time. Thing is, you give him a lot of shit for it. Here, there really is no way not to acknowledge that Bride is the better made film in every significant regard. I also would not consider Son of Frnkenstein to really have a strong German Expressionism motif going on at all. Nor, for that matter, did Fritz Lang's Metropolis exactly. It is similar, but was already made at a time that German films were changing directions. Nosferatu is a pretty good example of German expressionism. Cabinet of Dr. Caligari (my favorite silent film) is an even better one. Please don't insult its memory by equating a low rent sequel in the Frankenstein franchise to it.
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Post by GL on Aug 5, 2010 10:42:08 GMT -5
I must say in my defense that I did not say that because Tim Burton counts "Son" as an influence that it should be held in higher regard, I just stated a simple fact. Nor did I say that you HN don't care about such aspects, my comment was directed to GL, where we have ample evidence that he normally does not think that they way a film is made makes it a good movie. Surely there have been movies that were made badly that were original and for that reason they are good. But generally the way a movie is made does impact on its success with fans and how well it does, film is an artists medium after all, unless your talking about movies that are so bad that they are good, thats a totally different story. I do not challenge Brides status, but to me there are things in it that are pretty ridiculous and weak, just check out the scene were the annoying old women sees the monster and then does a move that one might find in an Abbott and Costello movie or bugs bunny cartoon. Bride is shot in a traditional Frankenstein movie way, Son resembles Germen expressionistic films such as Nosferatu or Metropolis, which is to say that artistically its a more interesting looking film. Son is also more serious drama, whereas there are things in Bride which almost get in the way of the story due to them being so ludicrous. You kinda lose me a little in here, and I'm not sure where. The first half to this makes no sense: Everyone who knows me knows that I don't care for how well technically a film is made but rather for the entertainment value it possesses, you don't need ample evidence to that. I'll say it anytime, anywhere no problems. The part that loses me, I think, is the following lines: Surely there have been movies that were made badly that were original and for that reason they are good. But generally the way a movie is made does impact on its success with fans and how well it does, film is an artists medium after all, unless your talking about movies that are so bad that they are good, that's a totally different story. Either the wording to that is a little weird or it's too early in the morning and I'm not awake yet, but I can't wrap myself around those lines. A little bit of help here. As for the second part, HNT is a far more qualified expert on the Silent era material, I'll leave him to defend myself on that regard, but had you specifically mentioned those last two paragraphs in your original defense, I wouldn't have had much of a problem with what you said. Those are far more compelling pieces of evidence as to why you prefer one film over another, as your original statement was total bullshit and more-than-likely lead to our responses. When you talk about the film itself and not bringing in something abstract as to make your comparison, it makes for a much easier situation.
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Post by abraxas on Aug 5, 2010 11:06:31 GMT -5
There sure is a way, its called an opinion, the statement that Bride is better "in every regard" is merely an opinion, as is my opinion that it is not better in every way. Which could be boiled down to a discussion as to what is more important to a horror film, broad humor "Bride" or straight forward drama "Son"
Granted the more outrageous aspects of Bride were few, perhaps if these were excised from the film I might have the opinion that its better then Son in some regards, certainly not all, as that's a personal opinion.
I did not mean to give any correlation between a bad but good movie, and Bride and Son, what I meant by "that's a different story" is that it should not be considered at all in relation to the discussion.
As far as your confusion......
Just trying to show that generally, poorly made movies are not things most people tend to seek out. [not to say that Bride is poorly made]
I certainly never got the idea that I was insulting GL, or giving him "shit" as you stated, certainly never meant it to seem that way at least. I mean how can you dislike a guy who listens to Death Metal.
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HNT
Grizzled HMaM Vet
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Post by HNT on Aug 5, 2010 15:38:14 GMT -5
Wow, its amazing how bad that quote of mine looks once you remove the entire paragraph of text that seperates those two lines and clearly has them meaning something entirely different than it appears in your quote. Bad form, sir.
As you seem to be one to site industry opinion as a defense of your view on film pretty regularly, surely you have to concede that you are presently bucking the trend by suggesting that you value Son over Bride. I don't believe you will find that many people agree with you on that. As I said earlier, it is perfectly fine for you to prefer a film that is generally not regarded as high quality. GL does it all the time. What you cannot do, however, is attempt to argue that a notably less respected film is better and attempt to ground that argument in a suggestion that it is the more artistic of the two films.
If you had said "I like Son of Frankensten better" you would get no argument from me (though I would disagree with you).
By saying that it is the better made film, and implying that Tim Burton's enjoyment of it somehow indicates that this is an industry standard opinion, you were suggesting that you had a basis other than your own preference for this view. You don't.
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Post by abraxas on Aug 6, 2010 5:36:02 GMT -5
1. Were you not saying that Bride is better in every significant way and how can anyone possibly deny that? How can you justify that, film as with everything else is interpretive, to suggest that simply because some think a particular film is better then another film, doesn't mean that others are forbidden to suggest that they thought the second film was better. 2. I don't base my opinion of movies I like on what the majority thinks and so I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, all I did was watch Bride and Son and found that I thought Son was a better film in certain areas. Let it be clear that at no point did I say that Bride isn't a good film, the only issue I had was with a few scenes and that those few scenes led me to conclude "for myself" that Son was great all around, whereas Bride was great except in those few places that I mentioned. 3. So since a lot of people say that Citizen Cane is the greatest movie of all time I am therefore obligated to think the same thing, and not allowed to say that for me it was boring as hell. 4. From watching it there was nothing that particular stood out about Bride in the look or atmosphere to separate it from any Frankenstein film before it. Son was unique in the entire series in this respect, am I not allowed to acknowledge that, I don't care how many people think Bride is better. I wouldn't mind being a cow, but if I don't want to Moo Im not going to Moo....... 5. I said that? ?? I said Not "Tim Burton likes this film, so should you.......remember its the law"
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Post by Jen on Sept 13, 2010 9:34:53 GMT -5
Okay, I created the horror classics section, but I made it a main board, instead of a sub-board. That made more sense to me, but if it looks too cluttered, let me know. I was thinking of creating a cult film sub-board in horror in general. Or should there be two, one in general and one for cult classics in the classics section? Let me know what y'all think.
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Post by GL on Sept 13, 2010 9:37:42 GMT -5
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HNT
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Post by HNT on Sept 13, 2010 12:04:56 GMT -5
1. Were you not saying that Bride is better in every significant way and how can anyone possibly deny that? How can you justify that, film as with everything else is interpretive, to suggest that simply because some think a particular film is better then another film, doesn't mean that others are forbidden to suggest that they thought the second film was better. 2. I don't base my opinion of movies I like on what the majority thinks and so I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, all I did was watch Bride and Son and found that I thought Son was a better film in certain areas. Let it be clear that at no point did I say that Bride isn't a good film, the only issue I had was with a few scenes and that those few scenes led me to conclude "for myself" that Son was great all around, whereas Bride was great except in those few places that I mentioned. 3. So since a lot of people say that Citizen Cane is the greatest movie of all time I am therefore obligated to think the same thing, and not allowed to say that for me it was boring as hell. 4. From watching it there was nothing that particular stood out about Bride in the look or atmosphere to separate it from any Frankenstein film before it. Son was unique in the entire series in this respect, am I not allowed to acknowledge that, I don't care how many people think Bride is better. I wouldn't mind being a cow, but if I don't want to Moo Im not going to Moo....... 5. I said that? ?? I said Not "Tim Burton likes this film, so should you.......remember its the law" God damn, son. I just finished calling you out for blatantly misquoting me and taking things out of context, and so you respond by doing it even more blatantly and badly. Here we go: 1) No, I have repeatedly suggested that you are entitled to your opinion. You are not, however, entitled to try to belittle GL as if he disagrees with you because he does not appreciate quality cinela, or pretend as if your opinion is the conventional wisdom and we are bucking the trend when the opposite is true. 2) Oh, but you do. More, in fact, than anyone who really has strong personal opinions and knowledge of film should. You just finished quoting Tim Burton's love for Son of Frankenstein (which you no doubt read about in some article somewhere) and then suggested that this film was an example of German expressionism (and foillowed that statemeent up by equating it to Metropolis, which is a great film but NOT AN EXAMPLE OF GERMAN EXPRESSIONISM). You spend way too much time parrotting others and criticizing GL for bucking trends of popular opinion to pretend as if you are not beholden to the conventional wisdom. 3) AND YOU HAVE MISQUOTED ME AGAIN. Of course you can say this film is better. What my full quote said was you cannot use as evidence of this a suggestion that popular opinion is on your side when it demonstrably is not. Go back and read your earlier posts. You tried to pretend as if this was an industry standard opinion and that GL disagreed with you because he does not know anything about the art of cinema. Popular opinion is not with you. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not to mischaracterize the facts. 4) Sure you can say Citizen Kane was boring as hell. And you will be just as wrong and silly as you appear here. What you can't do, however, is take a high and mighty tone with GL for disagreeing with you and then pretend as if youintended all along to take a clearly minority opiinion. See the difference? 5) Any Frankenstein film before it? There was only one before it, and most people can easily differentiate it based upon the black comedy tone which it takes. You know, the part that makes you try to suggest that it had "a few scenes that seemed absurd" without realizing that this was the intent of the film. It was very easily differentiated from the first, and it was better, at least in my opinion. 6) You certainly implied that. You did not have to say it directly. The character of your initial posts and response to GL certainly carried that implication. I would understand if you want to back away from the tone you initially took. I think that would be a good idea, personally On another more positive note, thanks for making the new section, Jen. Looks great.
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Post by abraxas on Sept 13, 2010 13:17:22 GMT -5
Fine
But I still think Son is better then Bride
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Post by CT on Sept 14, 2010 22:10:12 GMT -5
That was an intense debate!
Good idea for a board GL and thanks for creating it Jen!
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Post by abraxas on Sept 15, 2010 6:35:32 GMT -5
;D
Where is it?
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